Talk:Catherine de Parthenay

Untitled

Suspect this article is mid-high importance for WPWS as this reputation for brilliance probably originated from something significant, but my god it needs a tonne of work. Right now it talks mostly about her marriages - editors consider taking into account the Finkbeiner test for writing biographies of women in science (and humanities) --JBVaughan (talk) 22:36, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

@JBVaughan and Kj cheetham:, This is an old post, but it's now a timely question. The article has been signifigantly expanded and I think that importance should be higher than low in this case. I added Kj cheetham because he recently rated the article and it would be good to get both of your opinions about the importance level... and anyone else that has an opinion.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:34, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

CaroleHenson In this case I only rated the class, not the importance. My understanding was importance was assessed on a per-project basis, not simply per-article. The class rating reflects the current state of the article, but importance is the perceived importance to a project, which doesn't typically change unless the subject itself becomes more important somehow beyond Wikipedia. To quote WP:BIOG/A for instance, the important rating is an "attempt to gauge the probability of the average reader of Wikipedia needing to look up the topic (and thus the immediate need to have a suitably well-written article on it)". -Kj cheetham (talk) 19:39, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Kj cheetham, Ah, if it's based on readership, then right now the importance level should probably not be changed.

In expanding the article, though, it became clear that she was a significant force in France during her lifetime - and there are more articles that need to contain content about her.

I still have to add the content to other articles, including kings and queens, so that may drive readership up. It seems like it would be good to revisit importance in several months with the project(s).–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:53, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

CaroleHenson Sounds like a sensible plan. Definitely not my own area of expertise to comment on the importance of though. -Kj cheetham (talk) 19:58, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Kj cheetham, I understand. What you said makes common sense to me. It wouldn't be a strong position to ask for an increase in importance right now. Thanks so much for your input.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:03, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Henri III

Hello again CaroleHenson (talk · contribs), as before a great appreciator of the work you're doing.

On this article I am a little confused by this section

"Her mother files a lawsuit against Quelennec before the court of Henry III of France and his mother Catherine de Medici. They took Quelennec's side, who had left for La Rochelle, but they would not have her detained. Aubeterre wrote to King Charles IX and the case went before the Grand Council on 11 September 1571,"

Henri III was not king until 1574, after Quelennec's death so I am a little puzzled why she was writing to his court in 1571. In 1571 he would have been the duke of Anjou, was she writing to him in that capacity? sovietblobfish (talk) 21:07, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Sovietblobfish, I am so appreciative to have your knowledgeable and watchful eye!

I thought I said "future" for Henry III, but I just had it in the intro.

I wondered if "court" would be the right word, too. That's what is used in the source, but I shouldn't have used it. In that case, "lawsuit" doesn't make much sense. I made these edits. How does that look?–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:19, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

And, this to add Duke of Anjou and put parenthesis around future king business.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:24, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Having now looked at the source, I think court is the right word, but the court it is referring to on page 206-207 is that of Charles IX. Her representatives are merely targeting the two strongest members of the immediate royal family (Catherine and Anjou) as opposed to the ineffectual Charles to push her position. sovietblobfish (talk) 21:32, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Sovietblobfish I removed "lawsuit" and "court" and said that the mother was looking for guidance. For Charles, it's referred to as a "case". Does that work? Feel free to make edits that you think are right.

I am getting fried. There's so much I picked up from the French article. I may need a break for a bit.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:38, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

@CaroleHenson: No worries, one final question before you take your well deserved break. This Castle in 'Breton'. Do you mean Bretagne? Or is there a specific town somewhere called Breton? sovietblobfish (talk) 21:45, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Sovietblobfish I added the parenthetical Brittany after the first use of Breton, which was what was used in the source.

I'll be back.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:51, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

French article

Sovietblobfish, I have been adding some content that was cited in the French article and have a couple of questions to run by you if you have the time.

• I added the family tree that I had copied and modified from the article - feel free to move it toward the bottom of the article, like before references, or remove it entirely. I go back and forth about whether it's useful enough to take up territory on the page. (I was able to add the "hide" function, but could not find a "collapse" function.)
• I wonder whether it's worth the effort to add content from the French article sections (titles from the English version of the page):

• Matrimonial strategies
• The King's Death
• Resumption of hostilities
• La Rochelle, prison and end - adding anything new to the Siege of La Rochelle and Death sections

• I thought it would be nice to find English versions of her key letters and works and add the links to the {{External media}} template in the Activities in the service of the war section. I haven't had luck yet finding published English versions of her works or letters. Much of her writing is really meaningful. Do you have any thoughts about how I might search for that?

You've been amazing on this article!–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

As far as family trees go, I'm fairly neutral. I know some editors like to remove them from biographies of this era. I personally leave them around if they're present but don't go out of my way to add them if they're not.

Personally I think there's a lot of good stuff in the 'La Rochelle, prison et fin' section, 'La mort du roi' seems a little light on content and heavy on extracts from her work. I wouldn't bother with that one. 'Stratégies matrimoniales' looks like another moderately worthy section, and 'Reprise des hostilités' is the most invaluable as it bridges the current gap in this article between the 16th century and 1628.

I doubt I'd have any more luck than you finding English versions of her works, however I see no harm in including the French versions :)

sovietblobfish (talk) 21:13, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Personally, I would also group her political/military exploits together separate from her epistolary, literary and translation efforts. Currently the siege of La Rochelle is stranded on the other side of the information concerning her cultural pursuits.

I'd either put those before or after the main narrative of her life, but that might just be me.

sovietblobfish (talk) 21:16, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

In summary @CaroleHenson: though, my thanks for salvaging this article from the poor state it was in. Some day, I will come through here to do some content editing myself, and see what my book collection can offer about her. For the moment I am occupied in a large biography article on my draftspace however. I suspect sadly I will not be able to contribute nearly as much as you have, but at least one of the 70 books next to me must have material about her :)

sovietblobfish (talk) 21:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

sovietblobfish, Thanks so much for the feedback. I will leave the family tree in the article and look at the sections you recommended for additional content and to reorganize. Or, perhaps I need a clearer section heading than "Activities in service of the war". Hmmm. I will get to some copyediting myself. Good luck on your biography!–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I think that I solved the issue with the sections by renaming the subsections to Encrypted war correspondence and War-themed works.–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:50, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Checklist

To keep things straight in my mind, I am starting a checklist here. If anyone wants to jump in with comments, suggestions, or help, that would be wonderful!

• Family tree - I am keeping the section, but moved it to the bottom of the article. —  Done for now. If anyone feels strongly that it's not needed, feel free to remove it. It was really easy to copy from the French article, so not a big deal at all.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:52, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
• Finish pulling info from subsections of the French article as recommended

• 'La Rochelle, prison et fin' —  Done for now, but it may be good to look for other sources to round out the section–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:52, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
• 'Stratégies matrimoniales' looks like another moderately worthy section —  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:25, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
• 'Reprise des hostilités' is the most invaluable as it bridges the current gap in this article between the 16th century and 1628 —  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:43, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

• Use of the {{External media}} template to provide links to letters or works —  Done for two links to letters–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:52, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
• Copy edit the "Activities in service of the war" sections and below —  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:10, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
• Check for overlinking and consistent use of names (first names, last names, titles) —  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:10, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
• Update husband and children's relative's articles with content from this article–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:35, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

• Done Anne de Rohan (poétesse) (new article), Charles de Quelennec, René II, Viscount of Rohan–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:13, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
• Michelle de Saubonne and Anne de Parthenay–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:13, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

• Michelle de Saubonne's article is expanded, still some places where citatons are needed. Taking too long, moving on.  Done –CaroleHenson (talk) 20:25, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
• Finished work on Anne's article.  Done –CaroleHenson (talk) 01:19, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

<<<<< Items above this line/row are done >>>>>

• To do: Antoinette d'Aubeterre (new article), Jean V of Parthenay (major cleanup needed)–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:13, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

• Identify articles to add content about Catherine de Parthenay
• After finishing expanding the article and copyediting, address issue of importance in Talk:Catherine de Parthenay#Untitled

• Posted the question above in the Untitled section.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:35, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
•  Not done for now, based on readership (see above). Check back after content about Catherine is added to additional articles and see if there's a pattern of increased readership.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:57, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

• Consider DYK if article is now expanded 5x - Consider GA (or vice versa)

–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:47, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

• It looks like it's eligible for a DYK. Per DYK eligibility scan "Assuming article is at 5x now, expansion began 133 edits ago on June 23, 2023"–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:30, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
• Posted a question re: nomination of 5x expanded DYK here.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:36, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

update–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:51, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

update re: maritial strategies–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:25, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

update re: Reprise des hostilités and added a bullet (underlined)–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:43, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

update article clean-up items–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:10, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Eligible for DYK - update–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:30, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Increase importance? update–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:35, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

edit–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:34, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

update what relative's articles have been done / are to dos–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:13, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

posted DYK question for 5x expanded nomination–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:36, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Mathematician

One of her claims to fame is that she studied under François Viète and was a mathematician herself, but it would be good to find some content to add to the article.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:18, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton (talk) 02:05, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Catherine de Parthenay

• ... that Catherine de Parthenay (pictured), a 16th-century Huguenot leader, sent encrypted messages to other leaders? Source: Boucher d'Argis, Bibliothèque nationale, manuscrits Dupuy, vol. 743, études postérieures à Viète mais non récentes No. 16 et 17.
  La Porte, Joseph de; La Croix, Jean François (1769). Histoire littéraire des femmes françoises ou Lettres historiques et critiques (in French). Lacombe. p. 118.
  • ALT1: ... that Catherine de Parthenay (pictured), a 16th-century Huguenot leader, was a key member of "a highly successful network of information" during the French Wars of Religion? Source: Broomhall, Susan (2006). Women and religion in sixteenth-century France. Palgrave Macmillan. pp. 128–129. ISBN 978-1-4039-3681-3.
  • ALT2: ... that Huguenot leader Catherine de Parthenay (pictured) wrote ballets and satires condemning King Henry IV of France during the French Wars of Religion? Source: St-John, Christie (1999). The feminist encyclopedia of French literature. Greenwood Press. pp. 407–408. ISBN 978-1-4294-7340-8.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Edna Lewis Thomas
  • Comment: I will review the Edna Lewis Thomas article in the next 24 hours.
  • There is one minor issue on the ELT review.–CaroleHenson (talk) 09:26, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
  •  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:59, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

5x expanded by CaroleHenson (talk). Self-nominated at 19:39, 26 June 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Catherine de Parthenay; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Earwig checks out; AGF on offline sources. An impressive article. Well done! —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 23:00, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

CurryTime7-24, Thanks so much for the review! –CaroleHenson (talk) 08:21, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

@CaroleHenson: It would be helpful to include the relevant text. I have trouble with the sources and the French. I have spent 25 minutes with it. Bruxton (talk) 02:04, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Translating Socrates?

The article describes de Parthenay as translating works by Socrates, a man who has no surviving works. The article probably means Plato, but could also plausibly mean Xenophon. Should be fixed. 2601:42:802:4BF0:68A8:1563:1870:C8AE (talk) 00:09, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

My goodness. Thanks for letting me know. I will delete it.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:50, 5 July 2023 (UTC)